Goku vs Majin Vegeta

DBM numbers meaning DBM progression rate. DBM uses a slower progression rate, much slower, than most of us attribute to DBZ.

Again, when did DBM give power readings to the characters? Or did Salagir state how much they progressed in response to one of the questions in the comments section?

He confirmed that 18 > Base Vegeta, and SSj2 Gohan > SSj Vegeta.

Gohan was, without his rage boost, at most twice as strong as Vegeta during the Cell Games. Meaning even if he didn't lose any strength, Vegeta could grow a max of 1.99~ times, as anything more would cause SSj Vegeta => SSj2 Gohan.

Now, you take a look at the Buu saga, assign what % range peoples powers seem next to each other and then narrow down a closer approximation of what multiple Vegeta grew by over those years.

Toss an arbitrary 1 on Vegeta during the Cell games, whatever Gohan is approximate to (I get about 1.75, personally) without his Rage boost, and then work out the compound interest over time equation to figure out Vegeta during the Buu saga, and with him as a basis everyone around him (About 3.08, by my estimates, with Goku being at 3.59). You can further extrapolate this as a rough guide for after the Frieza saga, though the numbers are less reliable due to transferring a growth rate from later to earlier. Still, at least Vegeta's should be similar during the 3 years, even if the Time Chamber training probably warrants a more intense look in of itself.

On a similar note, at least in DBM, it seems like Goku got a Zenkai from the heart virus. Even accounting for Goku having a faster growth rate than Vegeta, Goku shouldn't have been able to surpass Vegeta's SSj from the time they fought 19 unless Vegeta slacked off, let alone put enough of a Gap that Vegeta couldn't catch up with an additional year of training. With DBMs slow growth rate, however, even a "small" zenkai (2x, or so) makes it work out fairly well.

goku's main weapon? Plotarmor

When I think about this fight, I realize it was completely unnecessary and avoidable.

Leon wrote:He confirmed that 18 > Base Vegeta, and SSj2 Gohan > SSj Vegeta.

Gohan was, without his rage boost, at most twice as strong as Vegeta during the Cell Games. Meaning even if he didn't lose any strength, Vegeta could grow a max of 1.99~ times, as anything more would cause SSj Vegeta => SSj2 Gohan.

Okay, here's the flaw in your logic: Gohan was stronger than Goku at SSJ1 (as shown by him being able to withstand Cell even after the bio-android stopped holding back). Vegeta was infuriated that Goku had surpassed him again. Meaning that Gohan was stronger than Vegeta even before he went SSJ2. Since SSJ2 is generally considered to be twice as strong as SSJ1, this means that Gohan was at least twice as strong as Vegeta, not at most.

No flaw. I'm talking base.

too be fair Leon, he could have thought you were only talking about the Cell saga.

It wasn't that clear that...

"He confirmed that 18 > Base Vegeta, and SSj2 Gohan > SSj Vegeta."

...was all in regards to buu saga.

re: Cell saga Goku

Goku [vs #19] was weaker than Vegeta [vs #19] even if you account for the virus effecting him.
-Vegeta is weaker than #18, and probably not by much...
Goku [recovered and] saves Tien... we don't know if he received a zenkai [but i like to think so because]
-Vegeta spends a full year in RoSaT, tries improving the SSJ form, thinks mastered new form and works on base...
Goku spends less than a year in RoSaT with Gohan and is now the closest to Cell in power [next to Gohan]
-Vegeta spends another full year in RoSaT, does not master SSJ as Goku and gohan did, does not catch up in base...

imho had Trunks asked Gohan what they did for training in RoSaT, and followed suit the 2nd year in... they would have caught up to Goku's MSSJ1.

Right. It seems like the last actual Zenkai in the series happened for Goku recovering from the heart virus. Gohan Certainly didn't get one, at least nothing more than a very, very small one, from the Buutenks beating.

Come to think of it, the zenkai fell into obscurity after the frieza saga, or at least its acknowledgment.

Right. But if you think about it, most characters actually getting beaten half to death, and not dying, mostly fell by the wayside following. Vegeta against 18/Perfect Cell maybe, but both of those paled in comparison to the Frieza/Saiya-jin saga beatings. The only one in my mind that comes close is Gohan Vs. Buutenks.

Yeah, but for the moment that is mere conjecture. Although, segments have already been verified as being zenkai moments, but there are a collection of other situations where you could mindlessly argue that characters strengths increased or not. Of course, I have no interest in such a trivial thing.

Leon wrote:No flaw. I'm talking base.

Ah. I thought you meant their max power, i.e. Vegeta at ascended SSJ and Gohan at SSJ2. That said, your math is still wrong. If we're talking base, and assuming that, at most, Gohan was double Vegeta's strength, then Gohan's SSJ2 at the Cell Saga was at most four times stronger than Vegeta. Assuming Gohan lost a negligible amount of strength over the seven years and instead became a weaker fighter primarily through loss of skill, Vegeta could theoretically increase his strength by almost four times before overtaking Gohan. Of course, this assumes that at most, Gohan's base strength in the Cell Saga was double Vegeta's, and that the Buu Saga SSJ2 Gohan Salagir stated to be stronger than SSJ Vegeta isn't stronger than him due to rage (which, considering that the comparison was made between Vegeta and a Gohan who had just been enraged at the sight of the beaten body of his younger brother, is an assumption that could very well be wrong).

Yeah, I misspoke. My numbers have Vegeta coming up just under 3x stronger than he was, and Gohan getting a touch weaker. The numbers I have are something like:

Cell Games:

Vegeta: 19.57
Gohan: 34.2
Rage Gohan: 47.5
SSj2 Rage Gohan: 475

Buu:

Gohan: 30-34ish
Vegeta: 60
SSj Vegeta: 300


If it's Rage, specifically, that Salagir means, then Vegeta could be up to about 20% stronger, which would raise the rest of the numbers in the buu saga proportionately... except Gohan, of course. ^_^

when the fat majin buu nearly beat gohan to dead. he could have gotten a zenkai from kibito healing him

Very true. That also explains his vast improvement. Makes more sense than swinging the Z sword around for a few hours at any rate.

yeah but its not stated or implied. zenkais basically vanished after frieza.

Here's something I've thought about...

What if.......... Babidi made MAJIN GOHAN

Yeah, so Gohan's pure of heart, let's um forget about that part.
Anywho, so Babidi, after listening in on Kaioshin and everyone, deduces that Gohan is the strongest out of all of them (not true, but Babidi ain't that smart). Voila, Majin seal on Gohan, who powers up to SSJ like Veggie did. However, Gohan doesn't have the Saiyan pride that Vegeta had that enabled him to resist Babidi's control. The result is a Gohan who is semi-controlled (since he's pure, I'll give him a little control).

The Majin fight will still be with Goku, and it'd be a lot more emotional than the Vegeta fight. I think the majin seal would bring out the worst memories of Goku for Gohan, causing him to attack. Those would be something like:
1. You left us for a year, not wanting to come back home (Trunks saga)
2. You let Cell mercilessly torture me and my friends so that you could have a fair fight.
3. We could've gone in the ROSAT for more training so that I could unlock my SSJ2 at will, but you were too cocky.
4. Because of that, Cell almost exploded, and you abandoned me.
5. Goten and I have never had a father around, and you were never there for mother.

With all this stuff going through his head, Gohan goes SSJ2 with Rage Boost, AND with Majin Boost. This makes a pretty good fight with SSJ2 Goku, and it kinda breaks up the same-old same-old of the Vegeta/Goku rivalry.

(Comments have been deleted by myself.)

3. We could've gone in the ROSAT for more training so that I could unlock my SSJ2 at will, but you were too cocky.
4. Because of that, Cell almost exploded, and you abandoned me.


goku already mentioned, that more training woudn't of worked. gohan needed the rage to unlock ssj2.
it was gohans own fault, his cocky attitude made cell do that. not goku.

Ussj Future Trunks wrote:overrated? i think so.

really? cause i don't know alot of people that are completely crazy about this fight. Vegeta kinda needed that to get back to his roots but only for one fight wich is good. but still.... there are people that are overating this fight? cuz i dont know any.

Leon wrote:Right. It seems like the last actual Zenkai in the series happened for Goku recovering from the heart virus. Gohan Certainly didn't get one, at least nothing more than a very, very small one, from the Buutenks beating.

I think Gohan certainly had the honor of the last Zenkai... right after Supreme Kai saved him from Fat Buu.

Don't forget about Cell's zenkai.

Also, didn't Vegeta get one after being resurrected that put him at about even with the Majin Boost from before? I thought that's why he could still do the SSJ2 transformation after losing the seal.

Cell was dead 7 years before Gohan took a blast point blank from Fat Buu.
... how could Cell have got the LAST zenkai before that?

zenkai requires survival/recovery of a near death event... Vegeta died

It was heavily implied that Vegeta could use SSJ2 before the majin seal, however he also learned that Goku was stronger than his max when he fought Babiddi's ki/light absorbing minion and his ki spiked into SSJ2.

I'm not saying Cell had the last zenkai seven years before Gohan, I was saying that Leon forgot about Cell's zenkai.

Also, Vegeta died and recovered. That sounds like a possible zenkai to me.