Goku vs Majin Vegeta

overrated? i think so.

I am waiting the revenge in DBM: SSJ3 Vegeta vs SSJ3 Goku

Vegeta has some alternative to SSj3. Hasn't said what yet, but its mentioned in the novel.

Paraphrase "SSj3 is worthless. It drains far too much power."

Goku: "But we need to master SSj3 to go further."

Vegeta: "You fool. There's someone in this room who's doing it much better."

*gohan feels uncomfortable*

Goku: "But he got a boost from the elder Kai. That doesn't count."

Vegeta: *waves hand dismissively* "Proof of concept. It shows it can be done, that doesn't mean its the only way to do it."

Vegeta: *waves hand dismissively* "Proof of concept. It shows it can be done, that doesn't mean its the only way to do it."

Wow, awesome!

Can you give me the link of the novel?

Well, now that SSJ3 Vegeta has been shown in some "official" form, I hope Salagir retcons that and ends up making Vegeta SSJ3 now. It really doesn't make sense if there is a transformation only unique to Vegeta. And with these past 20 years, I don't see why neither Goku nor Vegeta wouldn't be able to master SSJ3 in that time and make it useful like what Vegeta is talking about. Now a re-match between Goku and Vegeta would be awesome.

It makes perfect sense for there to be a transformation specific to Vegeta, especially if he's been working on a counter to SSJ3. After all, SSJ3 was exclusive to Goku until Gotenks copied it. It wouldn't be impossible for other saiyans to achieve it, it just requires training. Likewise, since Goku's been working on mastering SSJ3, it would also make sense for his transformation to be more useful than it was during the Buu saga.

The novel is in french. Go to the "Read DBM" page where you can select any of the comics and change the settings to French. The various universe novels will be selectable at that point. Copy the address address and then search google for google translate, paste the address in the field, change the settings to French - English and enjoy the broken, by mostly understandable translation.

so...mystic vegeta? lawl. i would like to see "USSJ2". meaning putting out the power of ssj3 without the negative effects of power drain. the form would have no eyes (like ussj1) and bigger muscles (like assj or the form vegeta used vs cell). of course vegeta would be a bit slower than goku, but would last longer in the fight. meaning goku runs out of energy after an evenly matched fight, and vegeta goes on to the next match (wouldn't it be cool if he fought U16 bra? )

ANYWAY.....let's get back on topic. is goku vs majin vegeta overrated?

Leon wrote:Vegeta has some alternative to SSj3. Hasn't said what yet, but its mentioned in the novel.

Paraphrase "SSj3 is worthless. It drains far too much power."

Goku: "But we need to master SSj3 to go further."

Vegeta: "You fool. There's someone in this room who's doing it much better."

*gohan feels uncomfortable*

Goku: "But he got a boost from the elder Kai. That doesn't count."

Vegeta: *waves hand dismissively* "Proof of concept. It shows it can be done, that doesn't mean its the only way to do it."

a boost from elder kai? the hell?
all elder kai did was unlock all of gohans hidden potential/power. allowing him to be at max power at all times.
he didn't boost up gohan with his own power.

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the goku vs majin vegeta fight was good, but the early dbz fight of their battle (saiyan saga) was better in my opinion

Right. Vegeta was saying that Gohan basically had all the power that he would have as an SSj3 (or more) without having to waste any energy or strain on a transformation.

didnt kibito say gohan was pushed PAST his limits? hence why he was so much stronger

kibito said a lot of things. like that gohan would not be able to pull the z-sword lose

yeah but old kai said it too. it was the whole point of the ritual

all that power and he still gets his ass kicked. gohan realy is a crappy fighter

indeed

but future gohan more than makes up for him

1 on 1 future gohan could have beaten future 17. but with #18's help he constantly double teamed gohan.

if 18 realy hadn't joined in. i think he could have defeated #17 before he could recover

I'd wager why F. Trunks and F. Gohan were so weak by comparison to their past counter parts were:

3 less years of intense training
Z warriors dead, so no one to train them.

And, after the Androids showed up, I doubt they got to train much, at all. They couldn't go all out and push themselves every day like you can in peace, because the droids might show up while your tired.

didnt 17 say "i was only at half power in our last fight" when they killed gohan.

i wouldnt call gohan weaker than his pre time chamber kid self. its likely he did harder training in 13 years than gohan did in 3. give future gohan the rosat and he would get godly. as for future trunks and kid trunks, i think pre time chamber they are around even. (kid trunks didnt stand much of a chance vs 18 without goten, and future trunks is smarter). post time chamber trunks beat 17, 18 and cell effortlessly. he would massacre his kid/gt self.

android 18 > super saiyan


goten and trunks power was surely raised with their time in the room of spirit and time. but #18 could still kick their ass. in 1 on 1

i have no doubt future gohan trained before the androids showed up. but when they did he not only had to defend himself but to try and defend bystanders/area

well oke future 17 did claim that, but i meant when gohan managed to knock him down and was about to (try and) finish him off. when future 18 kicked him away. allowing future 17 to recover.

i think if that hadn't happend, future gohan could have beaten him

Right. And the androids were a lot weaker than their past selves, according to Trunks. (Though I have to wonder if maybe the androids were initially the same strength, and the infinite power generators slowly wore down over time. Not really important, just musing. No mechanical device lasts forever)

Cell Games SSj Gohan could backhand Past Android 18/17 into oblivion.

(Cell Games) SSj Gohan(11 years old, right?) >= Perfect Cell > (Cell Games)SSj Trunks > Imperfect Cell > Cell > Past 17/18 > Future 17/18 >= (18ish?)Future SSj Gohan > Future SSj Trunks

@ Leon

when 17 claimed to have been only using 1/2 his power... well how would F.Trunks have known this? I mean... 2nd Rosat F.Trunks should be able to kill both 18 and 17 together with just SSJ1 just as easily as he did F.18 and F.17 so it's possible that Future 18 and 17 were similarly powered but just held back.

This also makes me suspect F.Gohans actual PL. Didn't he suggest F.Goku was still stronger than he was when he died? that's the android saga Goku without 3 years of intense training. How much harder did Goku Piccolo and Vegeta train due to knowing of a pending threat?

Also did F.Vegeta get Briefs to build a Gravity Room for him to train in? Did F.Trunks or F.Gohan ever use it before it was destroyed? It's unlikely that anyone [beyond maybe Piccolo] used Rosat too.

@ Docter KillJoy
So would you say "Kamiccolo" [pre RoSaT] is about even with Future Gohan?

kamicolo when he just fused was already stronger then first form cell (before cell drained a shitload more people)

i think future gohan was around freeza saga goku level

so Future Gohan would be a little stronger than the Goku who fought on namek but weaker than the Goku who would have defeated Cyborg Freiza and King Cold on earth. I think he told Trunks that his father was still stronger than him when he died. Future Goku would never have been as strong as Android saga Goku so Future Gohan would be weaker than Vegeta when the prince fought the androids.

That follows what I suspected.

would you consider Kid Trunks and Goten around Freiza's PL before their rosat? I think they exited around Vegeta's PL when he lost to 18. so a fusion of two SSJ1 around Freeza PL then a fusion of two SSJ1 below 18 PL.

IIRC Base Gotenks fought Fat Buu about as good as Vegeta SSJ2 did, but i'm reluctant to consider the fusion evenly matched with Majin Vegeta while in their base.

Using DBM numbers, I'd place Goten at about 1.1 Million, and Trunks at about 1.25 Million, post ROSAT. Gotenks is... 43.75 million or so. (DBM uses a -very- slow growth rate, somewhere between 12-15% a year, depending on character, not including external boosts like Zenkai and Guru). Base Gotenks went and got the shit kicked out of him in a single page. It wasn't supposed to be taken seriously, it was for comedic effect.

DBM numbers? When did Dragon Ball Multiverse give power readings for the characters?