power level limit in DBM

Hey!

i thought we could just open up a new topic about this.

if anyone is interested in my stance on the topic, read my latest comment on the newest page joking. here is what i said on it:

@Salagir

i agree with the recent rise of "you cant put limits on the power increase!" posts. while i understand your reasoning to an extent, your decision insults the very essence of DB/Z, imo. DB/Z IS shonen. a continuation of the series should keep that genre and keep the aspects of the genre intact.

with you wanting a limit, probably so the power doesnt get out of hand, you simply could still allow the "big" power growth anyway. since you want a limit, you would always take care to not overdo the growth. talking about "big", though, id say youre correct on the note of android saga ssj goku not being hundreds of millions stronger than namek saga ssj goku. i think the actual growth through training isnt that big, compared to the zenkai.

that all said, your reasoning of goku and vegeta just getting old is fine. as it is with nappa from u13 (since he is even older). but if i were you, i had opted to then actually draw goku, vegeta and nappa (and all incarnations of them that arent young for any kind of reason) as "old". of course not totally super grandpa old. but maybe have goku developing gray hair strands. vegetas hairline receeding a bit more than usual. some little wrinkles in the faces, especially around the eyes. maybe a scar or two that could not heal completely due to the bodies age. such things.

i, too, agree that power isnt everything. still its the essence of shonen and per extension of DB/Z, that the fighter grow in power constantly. nothing in DBM contradicts that so far. so my hope is that you actually do some rewrites on the planned chapters and change the whole "no getting stronger for the fighters in the ten years from DBZ to DBM" stance.

also you should put really good thought into how much power the super namek actually has. i know the piccolo fusing nail fusion was a plot devise. still it set a certain dsiplay of how the namek fusion works in process, as well as in result. piccolo from somewhere around 5.000(maximum after kai training) fusing nail who is around 42.000 got to 1 million ++ so there is some serious multiplier involved in a fusion between two not blood related nameks.

i know you hate power levels and such. but a super namek being born from the 108 nameks would have to be the most "broken power player" you have in DBM, save for original villains. not even zen buu with his "adds the absorbed power" absorption could rival that, unless he really absorbed the full on universe of his.

safest thing to do a manageable super namek, is having it revealed that he actually is only 10 nameks fused. that would even open up the wish for the other nameks to return to life. and it woudl seriously limit his potential power.

just for reference, i estimated a power multiplier of around 20 for each namek fusion. even fluctuations to that, ranging from 5 to 21 would still result in a monster of a namek if you fuse all of the 108.

anyway... enough of it. its your work. still i hope you take these thoughts into consideration before dismissing them completely

Yeah, it's just too bs'y. Didn't Goku say at the end of the manga that they will keep on training to keep on getting stronger? Goku should have gotten stronger than Mystic Gohan in 10 years. If not, then 20 years. With what Salagir said, the whole "Vegeta's new powerup" seems moot, if they are capped close to their power levels at the end of the Buu Saga. I really hope Salagir changes this around, unless he has something amazing up his sleeve that makes Goku and Vegeta still much better than they were in the Buu Saga.

It makes no sense is and just total bullshit. that goku and vegeta are still at the same strenght as in the buu saga.

at the end of dbz (after kid buu's defeat. 10 years later. they already both seemed stronger then super nerd gohan.

there is just no way in hell that 2 guys that constantly train do not increase in strenght.
there is just no way that gohan is still stronger then him, he never trains, doesn't like fighting and preffers books.

here is were I think 10 years after buu could have placed the Z-team

Goku SSJ3 is now close to buu saga Gotenks SSJ3.
Vegeta SSJ2 is now very close to Goku's SSJ2.
Gohan is same as in buu saga [if not 10% weaker].
Trunks and Goten are about 50% to 70% of their father's buu saga PLs and have SSJ2.
[we know Goten did train some with Goku; and Trunks' PL rivals Goten's.]
Gotenks is the potential big Power Level at this point.
Piccolo may be even with Cell Saga Gohan [ie RSSJ2] now.

but 10 years after Z...

Goku's & Vegeta's SSJ2 are very close to buu saga Goku SSJ3.
Uub about even with Goku SSJ1. [i'ld prefer stronger but ]
-others pretty much stopped training so see above.

Too much growth, for DBM.

I believe for DBM Salagir places Frieza SSj Goku > Buu Saga base Goku

Which means less than 50x growth between Frieza to Buu. And Salagir suggests that there is no -hardcap- just seriously diminishing returns.

Something like...

1: (16.7%) Friza return: 3.5
4: Androids: 10.66
5: Cell: 13.39
13: Buu: 30.75
End Of Z: 23: 38.95
Multiverse: 40.67

(Note: Not even close to a fleshed out "I've taken time to consider this and make it work in DBZ somehow" answer. Just demonstrating a general deminishing returns growth rate like Salagir probably has in mind.)

Now, We -know- Vegeta SSj2 > Goku SSj2 in DBM, as stated by Salagir through the Novel.

We can also guess that Goten / Trunks have lost strength between The end of Z and DBM, even if they were slightly stronger at the end of Z than during Buu.

What we actually Know.

1: In DBM, SSj2 is between 10-20x SSj1, and SSj3 is probably the same.
2: There is a soft cap and diminishing returns on power.

Power relationship (that we know):

SSj Vegeto >=< SSj2 Bra > SSj Bra >=<Gohan (Unknown amount)> SSj3 Goku -way-> SSj2 Vegeta slight> SSj2 Goku > Dabura

Now, my guess with stuff we don't know included

SSj3 Vegeto > Zen Buu > SSj2 Vegeta >=< Super Namek > SSj Vegeto >=< SSj2 Bra > SSj Bra >=<Gohan (Unknown amount)> SSj3 Goku-> Buff Kai >=< SSj3 Gotenks > Fat Buu > SSj2 Vegeta slight> SSj2 Goku > SSj2 Trunks > Cell > Dabura > 16 > 17/18 > Koola > Kold >=< Frieza

Putting a definite cap on PL's just seems to break the spirit of DB, which has always been about getting stronger and surpassing limits.

I think everyone's in agreement that a slow growth progression is fine. It's been 20(+/-) years anyways, so we should be able to see some strength increase. Having everyone with the same pl as in the Buu saga just seems kinda dumb.

Diminishing returns works that that you get less and less over time.

"Mystic" Gohan was at minimum 1.5x stronger than Goku, maximum 3x or so. Which means Goku / Vegeta could grow during that time, just not enough to cross that line.

I want to draw up an actual new chart, but diminishing return equations are far, far more time consuming then simple exponential growth ones.

at the end of Cell saga, Gohan was the undisputed strongest of the Z warriors,
-with easily twice his father's PL.
at the start of Buu saga... Cell saga Gohan still had the highest SSJ2 PL. [a definite cap]

at the end of Buu saga, Gohan was the undisputed strongest of the Z warriors,
-with arguably twice his father's PL.
at the start of DBM saga... Buu saga Gohan still had the highest PL. [a definite cap]

I would rather have it confirmed that DBM Goku SSJ3 is 60~80% of Ult.Gohan's max BUT I can follow Salagir's logic here too.

Pikuhan vs Piccolo wrote:at the end of Cell saga, Gohan was the undisputed strongest of the Z warriors,
-with easily twice his father's PL.
at the start of Buu saga... Cell saga Gohan still had the highest SSJ2 PL. [a definite cap]

i do believe that both goku ssj2 and (majin) vegeta ssj2. where stronger then cell saga ssj2 gohan.

Yeah. Vegeta actually said as much in regards to Goku, then proved able to match him with the majin seal boost. Although whether or not the same could be said of Vegeta without the majin seal boost at the start of the Buu Saga is debatable.

Edit: Back on topic, who here's seen the new page? Looks like even if the author doesn't have the shounen spirit, the characters still do.

I forget, is the anime fully canon to Multiverse? Meaning, every filler and whatnot? Seeing as some movies like Bojack Unbound are counted, that is safe to assume. So yeah, apparently Base/Candy Vegetto > Buuhan, and SSJ3 Goku is slightly weaker than Buutenks, seeing as both SSJ3 Goku and Mystic Gohan were beaten nearly as easily. Of course, there's no base on how much Buutenks suppressed his power between the two. But based on that, SSJ3 Goku would surpass Mystic Gohan in 10 years of straight out training.

Filler isn't cannon to DBM, and movies are only cannon after some tweaks.

Ah, never mind then, lol. I still believe SSJ3 Goku and SSJ3/whatever extra power Vegeta > Mystic Gohan, power level or not. Gohan never trained for 20 years. He has to be somewhat rusty in the fighting department.

On other news, looks like U9 Yamcha is around Android Saga SSJ or USSJ power. Doesn't that sort of contradict Salagir's statement that humans can never get as strong as the Saiyans? Maybe the U9 people received a lot of training in Other World or something.

Or that Yamcha is a cyborg or something.

If I got scripted to writeup the backstory for this universe, I'd have Yamcha get killed fighting King Piccolo (filling in for Krillan) and then again during the Saiya-jin deal making him unrevivable. Krillan/Tenshinhan fight Cooler and then the droids, at which point Bulma learns about them. Bulma gets inspiration from the droids and in her grief creates a Yamcha bot.

Here's the nifty part. She then uses the dragon to wish his Soul into the bot. Technically reviving someone means bringing their body back. Just moving their soul into a body might be skimming the rules enough for it to work.

*shrugs*

Not how it is, just an idea of how I'd handle it.

i think that this #17 and #18 are weaker then their u18 counterparts.

but as for this fight, i assume #18 is holding back, because she thought that she could wipe yamcha out easy.

well yeah trunks said the future androids were weaker and that he could at least hold his own. and yamcha and krillin seem to have fought against cell and babidi. so i think yamcha isnt trying either. next page, we should see them get serious.