U9

thats just fan art. doesn't prove anything.

we will just have to wait until u9 gets it's special

very interesting cover. but its based off what we already know. i bet they fought frieza on namek (chiaotzu's self destruction maybe succeeds in killing nappa), but then cooler arrived and killed frieza for them. and yes i always thought krillin and the humans wouldnt allow buu to be revived and took supreme kai's advice. they crush dabura while supreme kai fights and kills babidi.

it would of been smart indeed if they killed babidi and dabura before buu got released.

without a good guy Goku we are faced with radical changes in the series. Gohan could envoke the changes that Goku does in Z.

-Bulma gets the 4 star DB from Grandpa Gohan. She likely gets him to travel with her.
-Yamcha is defeated by Grandpa Gohan. Travels with them to eventually train under him or Ox-King; claims to like Chichi but really likes Bulma.
-Meet Roshi to get 3 star DB and continue Yamcha's training. Enter Krillin.
-Grandpa Gohan influence the character of Yamcha and Krillin through the rest of DB but is killed by Piccolo [in place of Krillin]
-Yamcha might not have received his scars training for the 23rd tournament.
-The death of Piccolo would result in no more DB, and Krillin likely tries to kill Piccolo in the 23rd tournament; but... without proof of earth DBs Vegeta would not have reason to go to namek for DBs later. So the DBs and Namek are alive in DBZ at least until Vegeta.

... I'm going to cut my rant short

-Let's assume Krillin and Piccolo faced of against Radditz. Krillin learns Kaioken and Spirit bomb.

-I don't think U9 had Piccolo wished back, even on namek; No Gohan to want his return. But without Gohan slowing his initial progress, he might beat Nappa while going all out; especially with some back up.

-Popo could still provide the namek ship and language for Bulma, Krillin and [a surprise] Tien, to use. Yamcha can follow up like Goku did [Gohan saw the ship and a dead baby Goku way back when telling Yamcha about it]

-Vegeta would either escape after loosing his tail or die at Krillin's hands. Without a great ape Gohan to sit on him... I think he will leave.

-A well placed Kienzan and Taioken combo can end most fights even if the users aren't half the opponents PL. Krillin and Tien don't see Freeza's final form and Dende doesn't heal Vegeta.

RE: Android Saga
Bulma, kills Gero and steals his designs. no Sayajins to argue with her. her all-human kids could have android parts later on.

RE: Buu Saga
Krillin is about Cell saga PC [not SPC] after mixing maxpower with kaioken for a USSJ look and limited stamina. Tien is about Cell saga Goku SSJ1 with Yamcha 80% of that. Tien and Yamcha can use Fusion and surpass Cell saga Gohan SSJ2. Krillin masters the Z-sword then breaks it... his Kaioken limit and Max Power mode is all accessible in his base form now with no stamina flaw. Fat Buu is beat by the Tien and Yamcha fusion, and Super Buu looses to Muten Krillin. No universal Spirit bomb required.

RE: old man Krillin
May have used earrings to fuse with Muten Roshi while keeping dominance like Supreme Kai did with Kibito.

no krillin is around ssj2 level i think. how else could they beat dabura and get katchin/pull out z sword? unless they spammed fusion. i dont think buu can be released as krillin is smarter than to let him be released.

I don't...think you people grasp how -much- Zenkai's fucked the system. (not going to look up exacts, bare with me)

Because of Zenkai, Goku landed on namek around around 100k, and left at 3m.

Vegeta landed on Namek at around 30k and left at around 3.5m.

Even assuming they were similar to Goku's strength during Raditz, and were a similar strength against Vegeta (using Kaioken, team work and tactics to beat Vegeta)..

Well even with very, very generous estimates, Guru's boost would boost would put Krillan at 100,000. 20x Kaioken would let him kill Frieza 1/2, and team work might drop 3. No way Frieza went 4.

Now, Salagir likes a very slow power progression. This means that, even constantly training and with no interruptions like the Androids or Cell, Krillan hits 1,000,000ish at the start of Buu.

Yeah...

Zenkai's broke the system. Salagir is going to have to introduce a work around for the humans.

hmmm goku landed on namek with a supressed power of 5000. but his max was 90.000 i believe. when he showed off to captain ginyu he used kaioken, he didn't state a number with kaioken but it was 180.0000 (oozaru vegeta had this power level also)

then from the beating his body got from vegeta pounding it when ginyu was in his body. when he recoverd he was suddenly in the millions

that is a realy big increase

Yeah. And Dragonball follows an exponential power growth, not a linear one. (IE, exponential is the stronger you are, the stronger you grow, linear is you grow at the same rate.)

IE, Linear: (gaining 1000 per year, for 10 years)

8000 (A little under Goku's power at vegeta)
9000
10000
11000
12000
13000
14000
15000
16000
17000
18000

Compound exponential: (Gaining a interest function over 10 years, 10%, compound daily)

8000
8840
9770
10800
11930
13190
14580
16110
17800
19670
21740


And the gap continues to grow. Here's why Zenkai's fuck the system: (Concider the above the normal rate of growth. And, these arn't acruate Zenkais, just example ones)

8000
Zenkai: 16000
17680
19540
Zenkai: 60000
66310
Zenkai: 3,000,000
3,320,000

ect. It's impossible for humans to keep up with the retarded level of boosts the Saiya-jins got from Zenkai's on Namek without Salagir finding an alternative.

well in u9 the kaioshin could have dabbled with the humans power and the workings of kaioken. creating stronger humans to go and fight freeza (since kaioshin was aware of freeza) and changing the kaioken with the help of king kai into a form that is far less straining. or kaioshin found a way to make the human base form withstand the strain of kaioken nearly perfectly and as such much higher multiplier than we all assume are possible. maybe dead krillin did not train with king kai but dead shaolin monks of his order? gaining lots of "withstand pain" powers? and after that one of the dead guys who already knew kaioken taught it to krillin and voila, krillin with X times kaioken is born due to him not having a big strain.

or maybe kaioshin, having a rare chance of clairvoyance changed the human genome in order to let them have massive zenkais upon near death

I think they may have been taught the fusion dance a lot sooner than U18. That technique would have been so useful on namek/cell sagas.

- ultra divine water from kami ? goku drank it and he became a lot stronger
- training from king kai or grand kai
- perhaps supreme kai showed up earlier and did something to increase their power

Ultra divine water was something like a 25%-33% increase. Goku's Namek Zenkai was....like, 25000%.

Now....Mystic seemed to be something like, 500x, and checking my DBM numbers, that puts the Humans at just around 1/2 Goku's android saga SSj. Toss in a Kaioken and they could handle anything in that saga...but I don't see them getting mystic that early. Cell Games Mystic Kaioken x20 Krillan > Rage SSj2 Gohan. (In DBM. DBZ numbers are a lot different IMO)

Buu Saga: (Universe 9, using DBM progression)

M Teincha(x31) > SSj3 Vegeto > M Teincha(x20) > M Teincha(x8) > SSj2 Vegeto > M Teincha(x4) > SSj Vegeto > M Teincha(x2) > Buuhan > M Krillan(x38) > M Gohan > M Teincha > M Krillan(x35) > SSj3 Gotenks > M Krillan(x28) = SSj3 Goku > M Krillan(x20) > M Krillan(x7)= Majin Vegeta > M Krillan(x4) > SSj Goku > M Krillan(x3) = SSj Vegeta > M Krillan(x2) > SSj Gohan > Mystic Krillan


Now, going by this, I'd wager:

1: Mystic probably can't use Kaioken.
2: If Mystic -can- use Kaioken, Tien and Yamcha don't have fusion. (Assuming Mystic Krillan can get to x30, Buu is no problem, at all.)
3: Without Mystic, Krillan would need Kaioken x15000. >_>
4: Without Mystic, Base Gotenks > Teincha > Goku
5: If Mystic -can- use Kaioken, a Mystic Fusion can't.
6: If a Mystic fusion -can-, he made Buu his bitch, and M Teincha, even at Kaioken x20, is a very strong competitor in the Multiverse tourney.

hmm...

RE: Krillin needs to be as strong as Gohan's SSJ2 in buu saga to beat Dabura and pull the Z-Sword. PC's max can't do this... but SPC could.

I thought Buu saga Gohan SSJ2 was about as strong as PC's max, and in DBM Cell beat Dabura, so a Krillin focusing on strength [ie Roshi's max power mode] over speed could pull the legendary sword out.

----
RE: Zenkai's are too broken to keep up with...

This is why I think Krillin [and Tien] would not face freeza in his final form. This would keep them from recognizing final form freeza in DBM and they would likely remember/consider Cooler as a much greater threat. I'm not sure Salagir plans to have had U9 even go to namek [i have no idea how that would work out either].

but if they did who would survive the Nappa and Vegeta fights?

A stronger Piccolo might just beat Nappa with a little help and Vegeta won't kill him... maybe [with K.Piccolo's memories] he takes the namek ship and chased vegeta to Namek. Krillin would need an alley when he goes too... perhaps a luckier Yamcha [survives and] travels with him in brief's Ship.
----

RE: DBM progression for U9 buu saga

I could see one person gaining a mystic power up from elder Kaioshin, and that be the one who releases him. I still think Krillin is the best suited to fill that role. However his emulation of Roshi begs the question if he used potara as well. Tiencha doesn't need to be [...Gotenks SSJ3] that powerful to beat Super Buu. Tien and Yamcha could be relative to Trunks and Goten [base or SSJ] with some kaioken multiple [lets say KKx10 or KKx20] and the fusion warrior could use a greater multiple [lets say KKx50 and KKx100 ie SSJ1 and SSJ2]

again my answer to the android saga is bulma [even secretly] shooting Dr.Gero in the head after her son goes back to warn them. The Z-team continues training due to paranoia during peace time.

I'm curious how they could learn fusion as Goku had to die after the Cell saga to learn it. Yamcha would likely have taken out the Red ribbon army in place of Goku so any androids may target him. Maybe Yamcha [and/or Tien] stayed dead and trained with King Kai until the Buu saga Tournament. A much stronger Yamcha could spark even Tien's interest in the tournament.

it may help to divi up what special training each Z warrior [Yamcha, Krillin, Tien and Chaosu] could have reasonably gotten in U9 with out Goku's presence. Yamcha and Krillin would both need to be influenced by Grandpa Gohan to effect similar changes through the rest of DB [like befriend Tien and spare Piccolo]

I like to think "Grandpa Gohan found a dead baby Goku who bled out from a head injury" was the big change

Goku's head injury came after Grandpa Gohan found him Up until them, he was an unruly and basically evil brat.

Leon wrote:Goku's head injury came after Grandpa Gohan found him Up until them, he was an unruly and basically evil brat.

found him [again] after he fell. Either way i trust you could understand my intention of having Goku die from the head injury rather than becoming the hero of the series.

..and so grandpa gohan would blame himself for [goku] the alien's death. In DB Goku was still a baby when he hit his head. would it fit for g.gohan to tell radditz about his brother's demise or should one of the Kame students close to him do it 3rd hand [likely Yamcha]?

Mystic seemed to be something like, 500x

I always thought that Gohan's 'mystic' power-up was way bigger (see me trying to do this power level stuff ):

In the Buu saga we know that Goku>Gohan (Goku is actually quite stronger than his son at this point)
We know that SSj3 is a 400x multiplier and we know that Mystic Gohan>SSj3 Goku ... so

Mystic Gohan > SSj3 Goku > Goku > Gohan
I believe that Goku was at least 2x stronger than Gohan in the beginning of the Buu saga, so that makes Mystic Gohan more than 800x stronger than Gohan

Does this make sense at all

ssj2 gohan coudn't even hurt majin buu
mystic gohan beat the shit out of super buu.

mystic gohan seemed pretty equal or alittle stronger then gotenksbuu. but once gotenksbuu started fucking with gohan's mind (using piccolo's intelligence) he got the edge and started to own gohan.

a x800 isn't that far fetched. as goku ssj3 didn't even dare to fight super buu (and him briefly holding his own against gotenks buu was anime only)

Well. It depends on what power growth rate you use.

With DBMs...yeah. Mystic is something like 1000x.

I don't think that's necessarily for the humans though, I think 500x with Kaioken works. If they can't use Kaioken with it, than 1000x isn't going to help anyways.

Also, I gave them a fairly generous growth rate, which might have my estimates of them too high. Any mystic boost over 500x that I'm not including would just be balancing that out. ^_^

And, I just read the Manga fight between Gotenks Buu and Gohan. Gohan got -fucked-. No 2 ways about it.

the anime made it seem more equal until gotenksbuu started using mind tricks.
but then again most fights got dragged out to make more episodes

Depends on how strong Gohan's base was after the Z-sword training relative to Goku's base. Both could swing the sword around in base, but having just finished training, Gohan seemed more capable. This could mean anything from a difference in control, or strength and likely still Goku > Gohan.

IMHO Mystic unlocked Gohan's Rage + max SSJ# and made it accessible in his calm base form. at the end of Z SSJ3 was the intended max... but if we count GT's SSJ4 [it's still dependent on Rage boost]


Lets say at 23rd tourn...
Gohan SSJ2 = Goku SSJ1 [SSJ1=x50, SSJ2=x100]
Gohan base x2 = Goku base [lets say gohan= 3, goku= 6]
but after Z-sword training...
Gohan x1.2 = Goku [lets say gohan= 5, goku= 6]
[although Gohan could be physically stronger]
then...
Gohan SSJ4 > Goku SSJ3 [SSJ2=x100, SSJ3=x400, SSJ4=x500]
[lets say 5x500 > 6x400]
Gohan + mystic = Rage boost + SSJ3 or SSJ4

however there would be a noticeable gap as
IIRC Gohan > Gotenks SSJ3 = Super Buu > Goku SSJ3
so... still dependent on Rage boost

Well. Even with rage boost, with DBMs rate of growth Gohan still gets a 750x boost out of it.

hmm... okay then how about...

Mystic = base x750

Gohan's rage boost= base x1.5 to x2
SSJ1= base x50
rage+SSJ1= base x75 to x100 [enough for Gohan to reach...]
SSJ2= base x100
rage+SSJ2= base x150 to x200 [cell saga reference: PC held back on Goku, Gohan held back on PC]
SSJ3= base x400
SSJ4= base x500

rage+SSJ4 = base x 1.5 x500 = base x750 [at least]
rage+SSJ3 = base x 2 x400 = base x800 [at most]

you're right, Mystic Gohan's rate of growth is still rage boost dependent [or rather inclusive]

edit: I only added SSJ4 because I new it would fit your x750 better

Well. Its the same difference in the end, but I like to use Gohan's rage boost on his base, and leave the boosts normal.

Mystic might just be Gohan's Rage unlocked, and SSj3 level power. (so, x1.5-x2 base and then the x400)

SSj4 doesn't exist.

Edit: If Gohan is at the same strength he was during the Cell Games, and his rage boost is the same, his rage boost is actually more around 2.8 times, which would make his rSSj3 1120x, which seems consistant with the other numbers I've generated. Without Rage, or Gohan's potential, I think tossing the humans a 500x for Mystic is pretty fair.

I figure to bring this thread back on track I would attempt to guess a few changes in each story arc.

Piccolo saga [pre-Z]
-Yamcha is likley to fill the role of Goku, with Gohan's help, until he meets Roshi and Krillin.
-Krillin is most likely to pick up for the missing Goku and benefit from his special training after he faces a much improved Yamcha.
-Tien should be stronger than his U18 self with a closer [ie reachable] rival.
Sayajin Saga [Radditz to Vegeta]
-Someone needs to die if they learn Kaioken... while Krillin fits, Tien could be the strongest PL after Piccolo.
-Krillin would kill Vegeta if the chance presented itself.
Freeza saga [If they go to Namek]
-Piccolo would have to have died [to inert the earth DBs] along with someone the Z-team wants to bring back or Vegeta would need to make an escape to Namek.
-Vegeta would still mention others going to find namek's DBs
-Bulma can still fly the namek spaceship, and Briefs can mod a sayajin space pod.
-Nail could team up with the two who travel with Bulma, Guru could boost them, and Dende could befriend them too.
Cooler special [we know 1st happened]
-Cooler may have just fought his brother on Namek [winning] and headed to earth for the DBs.
-no travel to namek leave all warriors below Nail, so namek should have happened unless they form Kamicolo here.
-Team work could still trump cooler [Taioken + Kienzan = pure win]
Android Saga [no warning from Trunks]
-if Dende isn't on earth, there will be no DBs; Kamicolo or not.
-Weaker Androids would be programed to kill whomever took down the RR army [Yamcha or Krillin]
-18 could settle down with Krillin, live in relative isolation, or get deactivated with 17 [if they find the device].
-Tien & Chaosu then Krillin & Yamcha train in RoSaT.
-the group finish off Cell's 1st form together.
Buu saga
-how would they get enough pwr to awaken buu
-if 17 & 18 are still alive they could be majined.
-Dabura would be a huge problem... a U18 Cell saga sized problem.
-Krillin seems to have meet a Kaioshin [his shell's material], he may have removed the sword too.
-if 1/2 of Buu can be trapped in RoSaT then they could try to deal with the other half.
-Krillin should finish Buu off with The Spirit Bomb or some spirit kienzan variant.
10year saga
-I don't think there are any DBs here.
-Krillin seems old and bitter; maybe he potora'ed with Roshi [see hair]?
-Perhaps Tien and Yamcha had kids [see Yamcha's hair] or are perpetually young; Launch and Bulma were available.

Origin Saga.
-Bulma runs into Grandpa Gohan, and after a while join forces to find the Dragonballs
-Gohan allows Yamcha to rob him, Confronts Yamcha and join forces.
- Pilaf Encounters Grandpa and quickly surrenders.
Red Ribbin Army
-Gohan returns to Master Roshi island where they train Yamcha and there new pupil Krillin
-Red Ribbin army captures Bulma. Gohan Yamcha and Krillin join forces to take them down. Join forces with 8ter, Win
-Fight in tournement where Tein and Chotzu join up
Piccolo saga
-Piccolo reveals himself, Master Roshi actually sucssedes and captures Piccolo
Sayjin Saga
-Radditz arives on earth, decides to screw his mission and sets himself as a god.
-Universe 9 tryes to fight him but fails Totally.
-Videl from the future arives in our time. Reveals that she is Bulma and Yamchas daughter and trains to defeat her Raditz. Warns of the second wave before returning home.
- Due to a much greater threat Piccolo is released and they train for the fight of there lives
-Videl returns and dies, as does Yamcha?, Gohan and Piccolo
-Descovering the dragonballs are now useless Vegetta, Nappa, and Radditz head for Namek.
- Although battered and betten Krillin, Tein, and Bulma head for Namek
- Sayjins and Z fighters join forces Krillin wishs for imortality and that everyone was back on earth, and to revive Piccolo

-Freeza saga
-Piccolo would Arive back to earth and start up his evil empire once again.
-Nails and Dende would find themselves on earth
-Nails after being nearly killed by Piccolo would Fuse with Kami and Kill Piccolo
-Piccolo Jr is born
Cooler special [we know 1st happened]
-Cooler, Discovering that the earth has the dragonballs starts a war with earth
-Cooler Anounces he is now the king of earth
-Krillin demands to battle cooler one on one in the room of time and space... Destroys the doorway
-Z team finds dragonballs and wish for Yamcha to return to the world of the living. Dragon anounces that Yamcha is still alive.
-Instead they bring Videl back.
Android Saga [ warning from Trunks]
-Trunks goes to the past and warns that the androids are coming. Cooler finally breaks out of the chamber of time and space.
-Yamcha arrives at the lookout and blast Cooler. Then anounces that Dr Gero will now control the earth.
-Krillin steps out of the ROTAS and warns Yamcha that he can not allow this
-Trunks fights Yamcha and loses. However as the end aproachs a Sayjin ship drops down
-Androids and Z fighters join forces to destroy the sayjins.
-Sayjins go Super Sayjin and the fight renews.
- Dr Gero sends out his Super weapons. 13, 14, 15 and Cell
- Cell absorbs 13, 14 and 15 and Becomes perfect.
- Cell fights Sayjins and the fight ends in a stallmate.
Buu saga
-Babidi arrives and gives Majin power to the Sayjins and Cell
-Supreme Kia takes Videl to his planet where she pulls out the sword. (Not by power but by force of will can it be pulled)
- Sword is set to weigh the maximum power that the puller has.
- Yamcha comes to his sences,
-Piccilo, Kami, and Dende fuse Eliminate Babidi and kill themselves
- Sayjins are finnaly defeated by Future Trunks and Videl "IT" Them to the dead of space.