Kaioken and SSJ, same thing?

I have a theory about the kaioken.

We know that a SSJ can't use the kaioken (if it was the case, SSJ2 Goku with kaioken X10 would be stronger than a SSJ3).

So I think that SSJ IS kaioken.

We know that SSJ is X50.
So, it is a X50 kaioken.

Thus it is normal that we can't use Kaioken once in SSJ, because SSJ is exactly a X50 kaioken (but in a different form). A SSJ is a X50 kaioken that only Saiyen can use.

And we know that SSJ3 is X400.
So a Muten Krillin kaoiken X400 could be equal to a SSJ3 Goku.

kaio-ken is inferior, because it puts a large strain on the body and can cause damage to the user
super saiyan doesn't do this, because it's a 'natural' transformation that saiyans have.

goku did combine super saiyan with kaioken in a filler ep of the anime, but after punching pikon in orbit. he was completely exhausted out of energy.

of course training can negate the strain and damage (as shown with goku)
but still super saiyan is superior.

Kaioken x50 seems like a nice alternative for non-Saiyans.

even goku only managed kaio-ken x 20

also again a filler episode in the anime
with tien, yamcha and chouzu fighting the ginyu force on king kai's planet.

tien powers up and then his aura turns red and his muscles and veins noticble become larger.

did he used kaio-ken there?

Docter KillJoy wrote:even goku only managed kaio-ken x 20

Yeah, but he stopped trying because Super Saiyan made Kaioken obsolete.

also again a filler episode in the anime
with tien, yamcha and chouzu fighting the ginyu force on king kai's planet.

tien powers up and then his aura turns red and his muscles and veins noticble become larger.

did he used kaio-ken there?

Possibly, but they probably would have had him shout "KAIOKEN!!" if he was using it. Then again, Toei
often forgot stuff like SSJ2 sparks, so...

that they did.
heck even with ssj3 they forgot the sparks half the time.

kaioken is a technique. SSJ is a transformation specific to saiyans. but yes maybe goku draws on his hidden SSJ power

kaioken and ssj basically do the same, but on a different scale. both amplify the ki and both put a strain on the body.
kaioken is less efficient as it has a far bigger strain together with a lesser result in comparison with ssj.

if a kaioken user would find a way to use the amplified ki to lessen the strain on the body, kaioken could end up being as effective as the "first time" ssj transformation, imo. it could even be used to gain powers alike to ssj2 for short bursts, id say. goku learned rather quickly to withstand the strain up to a kaioken x20. so if physical training and ki energy training would be used to withstand the strain better, id say the humans actually could reach multipliers of 50 and more. just that they would always have a huge disadvantage due to the strain if compared with the saiyan transformations.

what do you think of this reasoning?

well taking u9 as an example

krillin can use kaio-ken x 50 without a doubt (or at least a high number kaio-ken)

(possible) tien and (possible) yamcha probaly in the x20 range

kaioken and ssj basically do the same, but on a different scale. both amplify the ki and both put a strain on the body.
kaioken is less efficient as it has a far bigger strain together with a lesser result in comparison with ssj.

I agree with that.

Docter KillJoy wrote:well taking u9 as an example

krillin can use kaio-ken x 50 without a doubt (or at least a high number kaio-ken)

(possible) tien and (possible) yamcha probaly in the x20 range

In fact, as they beat Freeza, Krillin was during the namek saga, already near from x 50.

So, now (in the DBM saga), I think that he is at least at 400 And could be as strong as a SSJ3

VegetaSSJ3 wrote:In fact, as they beat Freeza, Krillin was during the namek saga, already near from x 50.

I'm pretty sure he beats Cooler, not Frieza, but that's even more impressive so whatever.

VegetaSSJ3 wrote:

kaioken and ssj basically do the same, but on a different scale. both amplify the ki and both put a strain on the body.
kaioken is less efficient as it has a far bigger strain together with a lesser result in comparison with ssj.

I agree with that.

Docter KillJoy wrote:well taking u9 as an example

krillin can use kaio-ken x 50 without a doubt (or at least a high number kaio-ken)

(possible) tien and (possible) yamcha probaly in the x20 range

In fact, as they beat Freeza, Krillin was during the namek saga, already near from x 50.

So, now (in the DBM saga), I think that he is at least at 400 And could be as strong as a SSJ3

i doubt kaioken x400 is even possible.

It will be possible if the user can withstand.

hmm...

I was of the impression Kaioken x 20 was harder for Goku's body to sustain than his SSJ1 transformation; but perhaps Kaioken x 50 was physically [if not practically] an option after recovering from his fight with Freeza. With SSJ1 giving him Base x 50, Kaioken x 20 didn't even offer half the power increase of his alien transformation. Kaioken x 50 would also be burdened with more than twice the strain of Kaioken x 20 for Goku to sustain.

So my thoughts are how hard was it for Goku to sustain SSJ1 compared to say Kaioken x 10? The human Z warriors eventually had a base power relative to Goku's at the time was on namek. Krillin's base [1300 on Namek after Guru boost] was eventually more than Goku's base [8,000 when 1st fighting Vegeta] when he used kaioken x 4 to through a kame hame ha. I think the Z warriors [Krillin, Tien, Yamcha, chaosu] should manage Kaioken x 5 easily after the freeza saga and Kaioken x 10 [maybe not Chaosu] when the androids arrive 3 years later. IMHO without other means to handle the negative strain, Kaioken x 20 would be a practical limit [Tien had the best chance to reach this having stayed the longest at King Kai's next to Goku; Krillin had the least time to even learn it]

however, I like to think Master Roshi's Max Power mode [similar to Freeza's 100%] offer's greater strength, endurance, and power at the expense of stamina and likely speed. In this max power mode perhaps a greater Kaioken multiple could be achieved, although... the stamina would become an even greater obstacle.

Atleast if we're looking at DBZ as reference there isn't a reason to think the others couldn't train to minimize the strain of the lower kaioken multiples and then work up to an unknown limit. Even Goku, before Krillin dies, was using instant bursts of Kaioken multiples [at least x 10] to defend against Freeza.

he used kaioken x 20 with a powerfull kamehameha against freeza (50% power) who managed to block it with his hand.
it wasn't enough, but it did burn and damage freeza's hand for a while.

seems it [kkx20] pushed Goku's body to it's limit with that Kame hame ha. I'ld think the others would need to be at least around his base PL [3,000,000] to endure a similar feat.

I think that if SSJ is x50, if Goku uses Kaioken x2 while he's SSJ, it's like using a Kaioken x100. After all, SSJ is a multiplier like the kaioken.

Ganjalow wrote:I think that if SSJ is x50, if Goku uses Kaioken x2 while he's SSJ, it's like using a Kaioken x100. After all, SSJ is a multiplier like the kaioken.

Except, such a combo would produce an ungodly amount of power. Of course, the kaioken can't be maintained with the same longevity of the SSJ transformation.

I think you're right about using Kaioken while SSJ being like using a kaioken x100. Complete with the physical strain of using a kaioken x100.

if you count the anime filler fight vs pikon. he did use a ssj with kaioken combo.
knocked pikon into space and into one of the many moons.

goku was out of energy and exhausted right after the punch though.

Yep. And this is after adjusting to the strain caused by the SSJ state and being dead, which has been explicitly stated to make one more durable.

while I'm inherently against filler, I like the inclusion of Pikuhan/Pikkon...

still there are 2 things that if goku were able to mix KK and SSJ opens up...

1. anything Goku could do, Cell can do better... much better.
2. Goku having mastered SSJ1 could conceivably use KKx20 while SSJ1 because his base can handle the same multiple and SSJ is a natural state.

I figure if SSJ2 is 100x base, Super Kaioken [ie ssj1+KKx2] would be ~SSJ2 also... a little broken when we see Goku can up the KK effect by a factor of 10. Still showing the strain he underwent of using it for an instant, while dead, could reveal the plausible outcome if Goku attempted a similar feat to defeat Cell.