How Strong Is Hirudegarn?

discuss the monster of movie 13: wrath of the dragon here.

His first form could withstand ssj2 vegeta and mystic gohan. but ssj3 gotenks managed to defeat him
then he transforms in his second more powerfull form, and with 1 punch knocks gotenks so hard the fusion splits up.
he then takes out mystic gohan and videl with ease.
goku also gets defeated, but then gets up again goes ssj3 and destroys him with the dragonfist.


his power is abit hard to determine, as apparantly he can only be harmed in a short time period (after hildugram has attacked himself)

movie 13 takes place after the kid buu fight. but still before they find uub (mabey a year or 2...3 after buu)

so it could be yes that goku surpassed gotenks and gohan, but how gotenks ssj3 suddenly became more usefull/stronger then gohan is weird.

and of course the sword plothole at the end doesn't help either.

ssj3 goku > hildugram(2nd form) > mystic gohan, gotenks > hildugram(1st form) > vegeta ssj2, videl, goten & trunks

It's not that inconceivable. Gohan wasn't -that- much more powerful than Gotenks SSj3, and I'd imagine Vegeta was able to force Trunks to continue to train for a handful of years past the end of the Buu saga. If Trunks keeps training, Goten does, so. Given the way they look, couldn't have been more than 3 years post Buu, which is enough time for him and SSj3 Goku to surpass Gohan's "Mystic".

According to my calculations, assuming 3 years after Buu, that would give us:

(Buu Saga)SSj2 Vegeto > SSj3 Goku > Hildegarne(2nd Form) > SSj3 Gotenks > (Buu Saga)SSj Vegeto > Buuhan > Hildegarne (1st Form) >= Buutenks > "Mystic" Gohan >(Slightly) SSj2 Goku >= SSj2 Vegeta > Trunks >= Goten > Videl

Goku and Vegeta's SSj2s would pass Gohan a few months after.

It's not that inconceivable. Gohan wasn't -that- much more powerful than Gotenks SSj3, and I'd imagine Vegeta was able to force Trunks to continue to train for a handful of years past the end of the Buu saga. If Trunks keeps training, Goten does, so. Given the way they look, couldn't have been more than 3 years post Buu, which is enough time for him and SSj3 Goku to surpass Gohan's "Mystic".

I totally agree (and in my fanfic it is like that).

According to my calculations, assuming 3 years after Buu, that would give us:

(Buu Saga)SSj2 Vegeto > SSj3 Goku > Hildegarne(2nd Form) > SSj3 Gotenks > (Buu Saga)SSj Vegeto > Buuhan >

I totally disagree.

According to my calculation, even at DBM Goku SSJ3 is still beneath SSJVegeto. Maybe he just reach SSJVegeto.

So only three years after Buu, Goku can't have become stronger than SSJ Vegeto.

The difference between SSJ3 Goku and SSJ Vegeto is huge.

this is i assume not long after kid buu. i assume it was gotenks's technique that did him in, or he was weak in that point of transforming to second form.
goku states hirudegarn is weak when moving to attack. so maybe gotenks saw this and took down hirudegarn first form. same with how the dragon fist defeated his second form. goku weakened him with the psychological anger thing plus the loss of his tail then finished him off. remember the dragon fist itself > goku. like how special beam cannon was able to kill raditz despite piccolo being much weaker.

so second form hirudegarn> first form hirudegarn > gohan > gotenks > goku > vegeta. but hirudegarn is weaker at certain points in time. like when his tail gets sliced by trunks.

the sword isnt a plothole. just common sense that its not future trunks' sword. the credits are just trunks using A sword, not tapions.

true,

goku didn't even dare fighting super buu, because he knew he would lose (and him briefly holding off gotenksbuu as ssj3, while gohan looks for the earing is a anime only happening)

vegetto on the other hands completely dominated gohanbuu.

so i seriously doubt that within 3 years, goku managed to reach the same level as ssj vegetto was

Ussj Future Trunks wrote:
so second form hirudegarn> first form hirudegarn > gohan > gotenks > goku > vegeta. but hirudegarn is weaker at certain points in time. like when his tail gets sliced by trunks.

goku ssj2 and 3 did better then gohan. heck even gotenks did better. so they both are stronger in the movie then gohan

Well, losely speaking:

Vegeta = .92
Goku = 1

Seems to me the added multiplier is between 10-15.

So Vegeto = 19.2-28.8.

Well go ahead and give Vegeto the benifit of the doubt and call him 30.

So.

Vegeta: .92
Goku: 1
Vegeto: 30
SSj Vegeta: 46
SSj Goku: 50
SSj2 Vegeta: 92
SSj2 Goku: 100
SSj3 Goku: 400
SSj Vegeto: 1500

My calcs, 3 years later show about:

Vegeta: 3.75
Goku: 3.94
SSj2 Vegeta: 375
SSj2 Goku: 394
SSj3 Goku: 1576

Edit: oh bloody hell. I've been messing my numbers up for about the past 6 months, even with my own theory. >_> So many charts to revise.
Edit2: Never mind. Numbers still come up close...they old get -really- screwy over longer periods of time.

goku ssj2 did about the same as vegeta i thought. he lasted longer because he doesnt give up as easily as gohan and gotenks and is a better fighter. then he went ssj3 and knew the monster's weakness. so you cant say hes stronger than gohan. he just appeared to be. and like i said dragonfist > goku.

A difference of 5% is hardly worth mentioning. ^_^

Anyhow, in my own mind Vegeta = Goku post buu, but most people like to give him about 5% weaker, so I thought it would be less controversal to include taht

how can the dragonfist be above goku....when it's goku's attack
your stating it like it's a sentient being.


and again goku keeps training, gohan does not (crime fighting against regular robbers and going to school, does not count as training)
so goku surpassed gohan again in those few years.

no....like my previous example. some attacks are stronger than the user ie final flash, light of death, genki dama and like i said...dragon fist. its a penetrating attack, like piccolo's light of death is. and we dont know how long movie 13 was after buu. if we say at most 3 years, then i think goku = gohan but seems stronger because of his superior skill.

goku has always been the superior fighter.
gohan just got lucky most of his life because of the rage boost he had.

thinking about it, as an adult he lost those rage boost this also contributed to him being weaker.

and movie 13, treated the mystic form as a power up (like ssj) instead of gohan always being at max power.

Generally speaking, yeah.

At any rate, post Freiza, I base the growth rates on the fact that Base Vegeta > Android 18 Nine years after their encounter. (2 in the time chamber, 7 real years.) This indicates a growth of between 60-65x in the span of those 9 years minimum...and I'd rather my numbers don't just get silly, so I go with 60x.

Ok. Figured up some math based on SSj2 Gohan > SSj Vegeta > Android 18 > Vegeta base, as DBM seems to follow.

Under this course, Hirudegarn doesn't work in the time frame. The growth rate is too slow for SSj2 to be even close to relevant in the fight at 3 years after.

That said, if Hirudegarn happened in DBM continuity, I'd place it at:

(Note: Read as Buuhan is 50% SSj Vegeto, SSj3 Goku is 80% of Buuhan, ect)

SSj Vegeto(Buu Saga) >(50%) Buuhan >(80%) SSj3 Goku >(97%) Buutenks >(94%) 2nd Hirudegarn >(90%) Gotenks SSj3 >(92%) 1st Hirudegarn >(90%) Gohan >(36%) Vegeta SSj2 >=< Goku SSj2

Buu Saga SSj Vegeta can still bitch slap SSj3 Goku and KO him in one hit, Goku SSj3 could probably have dropped Hirudegarn without the weakness but it would have been a tough fight and SSj3 probably wouldn't hold up that long. Gotenks SSj3 loses handily to 2nd Hirudegarn...even if he wasn't exhausted at that point, and he blows the hell out of 1st form, who kicks Gohan's ass, who's still far, far more powerful than SSj2 Goku and Vegeta.


Note: This isn't the case in the actual move, (or in my opinion the canon DBZ time-line), simply my approximation of what it would be according to the DBM power growth rate.

true the power levels are abit odd in the movie.

ssj3 goku wasnt stronger than gohan in the movie, just more skilled and got off a lucky dragon punch that exploited the monster's weakness.

few years after kid buu.....goku could have surpassed gohan easy. with gohan not training

and goku is also a far superior fighter. all gohan had going for him most of his lives was his rage boosts saving his ass.
and unlike gohan, as soon as gohan had some new power he became arrogant and sloppy

snip

gohan never ever ran. and goku has often declared others are better than him. goku oftentimes only lasts so long in a fight cos villains like to toy around. frieza for example. and piccolo and vegeta are superior warriors and tacticians. gokus too naive and has never created a technique of his own except dragon fist. hes > everyone else cos hes the main character. simple as that.